I'm sorry to hear about your opinion that music today is very "bible-thumping." I do not consider myself a mindless sheep that this song is geared towards. I am an acting student and believe in God and that he has a plan for my life. Any idea how powerful the lyrics " in you I live and move and breathe" are? This is one of those acting/ life lessons: everything we say and do is for a purpose, whether we know what that purpose is or not. Our every action leads to lifes next reaction. And life is a transaction. Why are you looking so hard for the thought process of God? Maybe thats why this song is so difficult for you, because it talks about feeling and acting rather than analytical though and reasoning. You actually ask where the lyric is that " sells" this God we sing about? Well, if there are not any lyrics that are selling God in this song, I guess it ain't the bible thumping song you thought it was. No selling+ no bible thumping= tons of brainwashing apparently. Soo. I'm not going to be back to this website again, I find you have your decisions made up and lack the will to discover anything beyond songs written by people. -And we are all imperfect by the way. The answers to your questions about thought, free will discovery and substantial evidence of God's mighty miracles come in relationship with God, not relationship with music. Musical worship is one way humans react to their relationship with God. It is an artistic expression. Just like a play, some people get it , some don't. Some people like it, some not so much. One persons art is another persons waste of $20 to see some dumb show.- But if you give a play a bad review, you have to back it up. You have to ask why and support it. You have failed to do that here. The path to enlightenment begins here? -I'm pretty sure enlightenment is more timeless and so available to all that it can reach people in more ways than a lacking of professional critique*ish webpage. Enlightenment doesn't need words in a song.And words in a song do not have to be filled with enlightenment, though some are for some. I am founded by my faith in Christ, ironically enough the song is too. Maybe all that needs to happen here is this: what are you founded in? Will it get you to " the very end"?
please do not take these the wrong way .I am not pointing these questions towards religious answers, I am throwing them out at random. They are life questions. Why does one get up in the morning? Throw any idea of religion you have out the window. Take a walk outsidem breathe some air, see your reflection in a lake, whatever it takes to find your enlightenment in this world.

So you won't be coming back. A pity.... I found your points valid and you possibly could have made for worthy debate. I will always defend your right to say what you will and expect you to do the same.

You miss quoted the website. It said "The path to enDARKenment begins here." These lyrics ARE simple brainwashing for the light. Faith is one thing, but unfounded faith is another. You are free to believe what you will, but what good does faith get you without results. I have found better results in darker religions than those of the light. The darker religious forms teach one to rely on themselves and their own inner gifts...not to pray to an invisible force that there is no real proof of. I will not deny a 'god' exists... I just think he is (as was stated in the movie "The Devils Advocate") an "absentee landlord". One who is never there when you need him. Where was he when the Twin Towers fell? Where was he during the tsunami that wiped out Sri Lanka? Where was he when Katrina washed away the lives of thousands? I'm still looking... it seems he was as present as Superman. In the end, this 'god' you love chose to squash many like mere ants. And you LOVE this? How sick is that?

The words in these lyrics are nothing but mere spin. They get you nowhere. Do you think 'god' makes you a better person? Do you think 'god' makes you a better actress? Yes, there is always a "plan for your life", but you inherently have the right to chose your path. You are given gifts as am I, and I choose to use mine for a purpose just as you. It just so happens that my purpose is to spread a word. That word is best spread musically. At least my lyrics have meaning and explanaition...not simply statements of blind sheepdom. If you are not a sheep, then how can you worship what the bible called "the Sheppard"? If you are not a sheep, then you are in direct blasphemy of the bible you hold so dear.

Alas... I would have enjoyed sparring with you. Stop by my other site: The Church of the Epical. The link is in the top tool bar. Maybe it's not too late to save yourself from wasting your life on ghostly dreams of beings that will do nothing for you.

Sincerely,
D'Sar, the Darkstar. Prophet for our modern age.

I think you are right in saying that many of the modern worship songs are repetitious and limited in scope. On the other hand, they weren't written to be profound statements of faith. They were written to be quickly and easily learned by a congregation. Perhaps a parallel is the rhyme "Columbus sailed the ocean blue in fourteen hundred ninety-two." Some worship songs are reworkings of older hymns, and those tend to have more substance. So, you have a legitimate beef, but less than you think you do. If you really want something to get your teeth into, try Psalm 136.
As for tsunamis and other disasters... Life is hard. God is interested in my ultimate good. He's not as concerned with my immediate comfort. Think of an athletic coach who insists that his team exercise until they're tired and sore. It would be a lot "nicer" to quit as soon as the team gets out of breath, but unless the coach pushes them, they will not improve. Factor in the effect that Adam's sin had on creation, and the existence of a powerful angelic presence that does NOT have man's best interest at heart, and I consider "bad things" to be more than adequately explained. And why doesn't God stop them? Because He created men and angels with free will, and part of that is allowing the consequences of poor choices to take place. And why did he create free will? Because it's meaningless to be adored by robots.

I like your gumption, Bethany. You have a good way with words. However...

1) Repetitious anything is called brainwashing

2) Anything worthwhile will take work. As an Epicalist (see the Church of the Epical link at the top of the nav bar), I believe the meaning of life is to give life meaning. Hence, no matter which side you're on, there's some modicum of work and/or strife to deal with... But to blindly believe that a "god" will deliver you from evil, then label everything you hate to be "evil" is just foul.

Everything that makes you human is a sin. Talk about discomfort! No sex unless you are married, turn the other cheek, vanity, pride... all these are considered wrong in the eyes of god. And yet... they are pleasurable. Why is this?

Was it not (for you creationists out there) for Adam and Eve's ignorance, and gods experiments in his "free will", there would not have been "original sin", no? Lest we forget his favourite angel who was "cast out" was the lynch pin in the whole scheme. Amazing how he granted free will to the stupid from day 6 and then expected them to do what he wanted knowing he created imperfection in "his image" and that they would plunge his new world into darkness. Good plan, Mr. Infallible.

3) Only man was allegedly given free will. Angels are soldiers who do as they're told.

4) If god doesn't want to be adored by robots, then why create them to adore him in the first place? What is this inherent need for love and adoration? To stoke his egotistical vanity? Sounds like a a pretty hypocritical "deadly" sin to me.

MAN! I love religious debates!! We should move this party to the Dark Forums!

Ok, first off, I'm still unclear why repetition is getting such a bad rap. I repeat phone numbers over and over to learn them. Is that brainwashing myself? Secondly, not everything I hate is evil. I hate spiders, but don't consider them evil. For God's part, the distinction breaks down. He hates evil, and because he is the definition of goodness, anything he hates is de facto evil. I admit that many religious types do assume that God shares their opinions of this or that. However, their belief does not make it true. Thirdly, to say that sin is what makes us human is untrue. Jesus was (or is) human, and he did not sin. Adam and Eve were human before the fall, and at that time were sinless. Also, God invented pleasure. Sex was his idea! Since he's the inventor, doesn't he get to say how it's used? As for angels having no free will, how then did Lucifer fall and take one-third of the angels with him? God did not create beings in rebellion against him, but he did give them the option. He has more respect for choice than we do.
I'm out of time, so the charge of egotistical vanity must wait.

All right, now for "egotistical vanity." The dictionary defines vanity as excessive pride in oneself. Note the adjective, excessive. There is such a thing as proper pride. However, it is nigh impossible for humans to find the correct level of self-worth, and it's better for us to err on the side of caution. God, being infinitely great, has no such problem. Infinite adoration is no more than his due. Incidentally, finite creatures such as angels and humans cannot offer infinite adoration. Therefore, anything we offer him is less than he deserves. Being omnicient, he knows this. So, he did not create us for the purpose of stroking his ego. Rather, he wants a two-sided relationship, he loving us and we loving him back. I never really saw the point of those Tamagotchi pets. I suspect God doesn't either. (And there I go, ascribing my own opinions to God).

Bethany's passion is admirable. However I dont agree with many of her examples.

1- Adam and Eve were NOT human before the fall....they were immortals. Your god's Ken and Barbie. If god gave them otions..then why keep them ignorant of the apple tree? If god had informed them why the apple tree was forbidden, then unlike rebelious little children they wouldnt have been suseptable to any temptaion. Give the option of divine knowledge and the ramifications of such, THATS giving a choice. Blind obedience isnt a choice, its a demand.

2- Angels arent Finite...how else are they immortal? Finite equates to being born, living and ending in death. Is your definition of Finite garnered from the stupid hollywood movies where an angel or demon is vanquished?....bahhhhhh WHERE in that holy book of your's does it ever say that an angel was ever destroyed?

3- Sex... well..IF your god created sex, and according to the book it was meant as a procrative act only, then why make it pleasurable? God determining on how it should be used? um....get real. Sexual intercouse and the acts that make it pleasant are a biological neccesity to chemical and pyschological health of the body. Procreaction isnt a miracle of life, its a choice of the female of the species to allow another to leech off their resources, causing fatigue and occasional illness. In many cases there wasnt a choice in this symbiot event.

4- Repetition...your example of how one remembers a particular phone number is amusing at best, insulting at worst. It is YOUR choice to remember a particular detail that brings pleasure or enhancement to lifestyle. The repetition of HAMMERING an idea into a head, consciencely or subconsciencely, IS brainwashing. Is it a choice to listen or not?..of course, but how many recognize the subtle discourse of telling you how to THINK?

5- Jesus was human by your words....and he didnt sin?...what was he doing but sinning in the venue of pride when he destroyed the temple at the age of 7? Wasnt it excessive pride to claim to be the son of god, and be here to "wash away" the sins of man? As altruistic as it seems, to die for belief, how was it so pure to destroy the temple, how was it so pure to lead peoples onto a belief where so much onmipotence of an IDEA dictates how one MUST believe..and IF you dont..you are a debased individual?

6- YOUR god deserves respect for omnipotence? If he was so omnipotent.and all forgiving..how come he didnt allow Moses to eneter the holy land? How come he allowed the jews out of egypt to roam the desert for 40 yrs when Judea was "just down the block"? Why did he allow the use Job as a plaything in a bet with his angel Lucifer? Why didnt he allow Adam and Eve a reprieve when they disobeyed when he gave them NO choice BUT to disobey? Why did he dispell Lilith out of eden when she wasnt "perfect"? ( that brings to mind...WHO in the land of Nod did Lilith procreate with in order that INCEST didnt occur IF ADAM was the only Male in the creation, and his sons and daughters could continue the line of man? or was ADAM a polygamist..and doesnt that go against the book? even then...incest was the only way..since Adam, Eve and lilith were the parents of us all according to the book).

What IS sin to begin with?...is it what that book says it is?...and who wrote that book?...MAN did...Sin is the societal manifstations of, at the time was, aborant behaviour agiant one another buy bigotted individuals who had nothing better to do but be busy bodies. " I'm not getting sex..so no one else should..unless its just for bearing children" " my neighbor has good things..but I havent worked to have them, to take them from him for my own enjoyment, so no one else can" " my neighbor has a prettier woman/mate than I do, but she/he doesnt want me, so I cant have that .so no one else can even think that either" COME ON....IF you tell me that GOD wrote the book....do some research..it was MAN and his prejudicial whims...the old testiment stories are stories/ parables to exact the same responses.

A two sides god/human existance?...I dont think so....your god only loves and adores us humans who blindly obey what MAN was determined what your god may want.

Bloody busy bodies....

I don't think you and I are reading the same book. Where ARE you getting your information?

1. Not that it's important, but nowhere does it say that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was an apple tree. I seem to recall speculations that the assumption that the tree bore apples was borrowed from Greek mythology and the apples of the Hesperides. The important part is that God did tell Adam and Eve why not to eat the fruit. It was because they would die. "Human" and "immortal" are not mutually exclusive qualities, by the way. Despite centuries of tradition, humans do not become angels when they put on immortality.

2. Finite means exactly that-- limited. Angels are immortal, and much more powerful than humans in certain ways, but they are not omnipotent. Immortal does not mean eternal, either. An angel has a starting point, and therefore lives for exactly half of forever. "Vanquished" does not mean "destroyed." According to the book I read, the rebellious angels are to be incarcerated.

3. If sex is meant to be merely procreative, why include the Song of Solomon in the Scriptures? I can't remember any mention of children in that book.

4. My example of memorizing a telephone number was meant to be ridiculous. You made a universal statement that all repetition is brainwashing. And, getting back to the original complaint that repetitive religious songs are brainwashing, I'd have to say that they're not very effective, if the number of people who leave the church as soon as they leave the parental roof is anything to go by.

5. Jesus destroyed the temple at 7? Where did you get that idea? And if he did, how is it that he was able to visit it at age 12 and dispute with the rabbis? That's nonsense. As for pride, claiming to be God is megalomania only if it isn't true. Now, obviously he believed his claim, because he died for persisting in it. That means he was either a lunatic or really what he said. Given that he performed miracles before many, many witnesses, I think he has the evidence to back up his claim.

6. Again, I think we're reading different books. I have read the Bible cover to cover several times, and there is NO mention of Lilith. As for your other examples.... A. Moses spoke to God face-to-face. The stakes are higher with greater revelation, and Moses disobeyed a direct command. B. The Israelites did go straight to Canaan once out of Egypt, but lost their nerve when ten of their spies reported big, strong inhabitants. They voted to go back to Egypt. Over the next 40 years, every one who remembered slavery except for Joshua and Caleb died. C. I don't know why God allowed Satan to test Job. D. We have already established that I don't believe in Lilith. As for incest, I rather think that the prohibition against it came with the giving of the Law. Abraham, after all, married his half-sister Sarah. If we allow the hypothesis that sin corrupted all of creation, the physical order as well as the spiritual, then every generation collects more genetic debris, so to speak. (There has NEVER been a mutation observed that benefits a species. The best we can get is mutations we like for other reasons, such as seedless oranges.) Inbreeding hastens this process, and an interdiction against close relatives marrying is a protection against this degeneration.

7. Jesus said that the heart of the Law was to love God, and love your neighbor. So did Moses, actually. Aberrant behavior? Well, if you mean by that behavior which harms others, yes, sin is aberrant behavior. Americans like to talk about rights. What gives you (generic you) more rights than anyone else has? That type of thinking is a result of the ego-centric disease that originated with the lie "You can be like God."
God doesn't love just those who love him. "This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins." (1 John 4:9) If God didn't love us, why would he suffer for us? Why go to such lengths to clear us?
As for man writing the book to fit his predjudicial whims, a great portion of that book is straight history. The Bible's been sifted over and over by those who would love to catch it in an inaccuracy. I have yet to hear of anyone finding one. This, mind you, in 66 books written by many authors over more than a thousand years.

You don't have to believe if you don't want to. As I said before, God respects choice. It's just that one of the things you DON'T get to choose is the consequences of a given choice, any more than you can choose not to obey the law of gravity.

Oh MAN, I'm loving this stuff! I LOVE great debates!

Uhhh...I'm limited on time, and I want to respond to some of these points, but I saw this on the Dark Forums and they made me think of you, Bethany:

Taken from a post by AcrylicDeadDoll at : http://thedarkstar.net/DarkTalk/viewthread.php?tid=2299

"Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian"

Interesting Reading
Funny, but True

10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.

8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.

7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!

6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.

4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."

3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.

2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.

History???? the bible you spout so freely is HISTORY?????, while you claim to have read it cover to cover, you havent read about Lilith, being exiled into the land of Nod for being imperfect in the eyes of your lord? Do a search on Lilith...or actually delve into the forums here..there is a LONG thesis on the history of Lilith in reference to your bible.

If your history in the old testiment is factual...then where did the Ark go...not noah's..but the Ark of the Commandments. The jews release from egypt after passover never made it to judea....their descendants made it. It was your god's punishment that those original exodusians would never see the holy land for their "sin" of losing faith. Moses never stepped foot there..he saw it only from afar. BUT THEN...of course you know that ..having read the old testiment.

HISTORY:...the book of revelation writen by Peter was written by a parkensonian old man in delusion, exiled in a cave, then crucified upside down, for writing his manic delusions of HIS version of HIS skewed memories of his life, and what his fears were of the time.

I am trying to figure out how you can say it is HISTORY! Yes our history books were written by man, but with pictures and ancedotes, where are the picture for your bible..just artist renderings and interpretaions of a book of hear say.

Bethany..your vehemance in you belief is admirable...I applaud you, but you are sadly shortsighted at any deviances to what you have been told to believe.

Yes, I've read the Bible cover to cover. No, it doesn't mention Lilith. Cain, the firstborn son of Adam and Eve, went to Nod and lived there after he killed his brother. Yes, I know Moses never made it to Canaan. I said everyone except Joshua and Caleb died in the desert, remember?
Peter didn't write Revelation, John did. Yes, he was old. Yes, he was living in exile on an island, possibly in a cave. There is no evidence that he had Parkinson's.
As for the 10 signs of fundamentalism...
10. Denying the existence of other gods. I don't deny the existence of other spirits, I just deny that they are worthy of worship.
9. Denying evolution. Never mind the Bible, it just isn't reasonable to think that the theory of evolution can overthrow the second law of thermodynamics. If a scientific theory contradicts a scientific law, the law wins.
8. Polytheism vs. Trinity. The doctrine of the Trinity is one of the most difficult in Christianity. Believe me, it would be a lot easier for all concerned if we had three interrelated gods rather than one triple-natured God. Unfortunately, such is not the case.
7. Allah and Jehovah's genocides. All I can say is that the Canaanites were evil in the eyes of the Lord. That's given as part of the explanation for the delay between Abraham and the full nation taking possession. God kept the Israelites in Egypt until "the sin of the Amorites has reached its full measure."
6. Demigods. Actually, I have a rather unorthodox opinion of that. I think that there actually were half-human, half-spirit children that gave rise to those stories. I do insist that Mary conceived without having sex, that Jesus is God, and he died and rose again. Given the existence of God, miracles are quite believable (with proper testimony, of course).

I'm out of time, but will continue later.

Yo Bethany..you left off on a tangent and never continued..thats a shame.

I never said I was perfect in WHO I said wrote revelations, if it was "john"..so be it..what we now know of how the aged react to the deteriation of body....how couldnt it be parkensonian dementia seeing the visions?

What you got bored..or scared?...Lilith can be found on any Internet search..so IF Cain procreted with her...well...so be it...according to the bible...the start of man was an incestuous thing after Adam and Eve. Stories, books novels and thesis have been writen using this family tree's example.

You are obviously a creationist and cant see past your own teachings by biased fellowships. You write with such a diverse belief, but when what YOU call our History book ( aka the bible) is attacked or questioned, you go all fundumentalist on us. MAKE UP YOUR MIND..are you a free thinker or are you a bible'ist....you cant have it both way and sound intelligent.

Beth..I enjoyed you for a while....open your mind..persue the forums...look at the Sancto Sanctorium...learn that others belong in this world and believe as strongly as you in whatever realm they choose, however they dont disparage your " history" book.

We welcome you in Open Forums..not the closed venue of just commentary of a blog..come join us..you may find you will find kindred or actully enjoy yourself in intelligent or asinine commentary.